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	<title>Comments for The Disorder Of Things</title>
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	<description>Hang our diplomas on the bathroom wall</description>
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		<title>Comment on Gender Trouble, Racial Salvation and the Tragedy of Political Community in &#8216;Game Of Thrones&#8217; (2012-2013) by Name goes Here.</title>
		<link>http://thedisorderofthings.com/2013/06/11/gender-trouble-racial-salvation-and-the-tragedy-of-political-community-in-game-of-thrones-2012-2013/#comment-5658</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Name goes Here.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 23:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedisorderofthings.com/?p=5385#comment-5658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Guns, Germs and Steel. And Dragons.

Basically, blame geography for the absence of technological and subsequent social revolution in Westeros and it starts making sense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guns, Germs and Steel. And Dragons.</p>
<p>Basically, blame geography for the absence of technological and subsequent social revolution in Westeros and it starts making sense.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Gender Trouble, Racial Salvation and the Tragedy of Political Community in &#8216;Game Of Thrones&#8217; (2012-2013) by ndm lees</title>
		<link>http://thedisorderofthings.com/2013/06/11/gender-trouble-racial-salvation-and-the-tragedy-of-political-community-in-game-of-thrones-2012-2013/#comment-5657</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ndm lees]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 23:20:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedisorderofthings.com/?p=5385#comment-5657</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the response. Here&#039;s some more thoughts if you are interested:

Moorcock ranges from pretty standard (although subversive in tone) pulp fantasy to New Wave experimental writings. At some point on that spectrum his writings are pretty clearly no longer  fantasy as such. The settings in his pulp fantasy stuff are pretty standard pseudo-medieval (or pseudo-antique) set-ups, despite the very different ideological slant to Heinlein (Elric was envisaged as an anti-Conan) and Tolkein that he takes.

In most fantasy dragons, wizards etc. are pretty much paraphernalia sprinkled on top of a pseudo-medieval social world. It&#039;s pretty rare that magic geegaws actually affect the social structure of fantasy settings (as they obviously actually would), they just provide macguffins and special effects. I grant that people often categorise narratives by certain signifiers, rayguns=scifi and magic swords=fantasy. But that&#039;s not all there is to it. Star Wars is clearly fantasy despite scifi trappings (complete with a knightly religious order and a pseudo-Roman political set-up). I think my working definition of fantasy as supposedly realistic historically-inspired setting plus magic sprinkled on top holds up fairly well. Once the social setting is primarily the work of the imagination I think we&#039;re heading off to other genres (speculative/science fiction if it is rationalised, slipstream if not). 

Le Guin&#039;s Earthsea series (haven&#039;t read her other fantasy) is a cut above most fantasy because magic in those books possesses a unique sort of verisimilitude. Le Guin obviously has a keen sense of how actual human societies have understood magic. 

The reason most fantasy is pretty lame is because it rarely makes much internal sense and the medieval social world it presents is usually sanitised and romanticised. Fantasy is ideological in that it buys into nonsense elite narratives from the actual medieval era (knights errant etc. ). But fantasy settings provide good canvasses for big special effects, exciting adventures and power fantasies without moral complications - so the genre stays popular in film, book, comic, rpg, computer games etc. 

When fantasy is acting as a vehicle for escapism verisimilitude doesn&#039;t really matter, and I agree it&#039;s pure entitled whining to start complaining about gay monarchs or [a href=&quot;http://fuckyeahscifiwomenofcolour.tumblr.com/post/37413846476/author-scott-lynch-responds-to-a-critic-of-the&quot;]black female pirates[/a] in a genre full of chainmail bikinis. But I think GoT is aiming at something a bit different, something that of necessity ties it (a little bit) more closely to historical reality. I may be attaching a bit too much importance to genre boundaries in all of this though.

I don&#039;t think GoT is really a critique of actual feudalism, but it portrays the medieval era with a fair degree of honesty - which counts for quite a lot I think (but maybe all of this is special pleading). I guess it could be considered a critique of standard genre fantasy, Sansa&#039;s plot line involves the systematic destruction of her romantic ideas of chivalry. But yes it still does play on the romance of fluttering house standards and brave knights even as it displays a level of mercilessness about showing us what underpins such a system.

True, if GoT were set in the 1990s it would have to be set in Mogadishu or Myanmar or somewhere, which I agree wouldn&#039;t have the same appeal. Knights and castles increase the distance from the backstabbings, battles and brutalisations. But then again everyone loves The Wire...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the response. Here&#8217;s some more thoughts if you are interested:</p>
<p>Moorcock ranges from pretty standard (although subversive in tone) pulp fantasy to New Wave experimental writings. At some point on that spectrum his writings are pretty clearly no longer  fantasy as such. The settings in his pulp fantasy stuff are pretty standard pseudo-medieval (or pseudo-antique) set-ups, despite the very different ideological slant to Heinlein (Elric was envisaged as an anti-Conan) and Tolkein that he takes.</p>
<p>In most fantasy dragons, wizards etc. are pretty much paraphernalia sprinkled on top of a pseudo-medieval social world. It&#8217;s pretty rare that magic geegaws actually affect the social structure of fantasy settings (as they obviously actually would), they just provide macguffins and special effects. I grant that people often categorise narratives by certain signifiers, rayguns=scifi and magic swords=fantasy. But that&#8217;s not all there is to it. Star Wars is clearly fantasy despite scifi trappings (complete with a knightly religious order and a pseudo-Roman political set-up). I think my working definition of fantasy as supposedly realistic historically-inspired setting plus magic sprinkled on top holds up fairly well. Once the social setting is primarily the work of the imagination I think we&#8217;re heading off to other genres (speculative/science fiction if it is rationalised, slipstream if not). </p>
<p>Le Guin&#8217;s Earthsea series (haven&#8217;t read her other fantasy) is a cut above most fantasy because magic in those books possesses a unique sort of verisimilitude. Le Guin obviously has a keen sense of how actual human societies have understood magic. </p>
<p>The reason most fantasy is pretty lame is because it rarely makes much internal sense and the medieval social world it presents is usually sanitised and romanticised. Fantasy is ideological in that it buys into nonsense elite narratives from the actual medieval era (knights errant etc. ). But fantasy settings provide good canvasses for big special effects, exciting adventures and power fantasies without moral complications &#8211; so the genre stays popular in film, book, comic, rpg, computer games etc. </p>
<p>When fantasy is acting as a vehicle for escapism verisimilitude doesn&#8217;t really matter, and I agree it&#8217;s pure entitled whining to start complaining about gay monarchs or [a href="http://fuckyeahscifiwomenofcolour.tumblr.com/post/37413846476/author-scott-lynch-responds-to-a-critic-of-the"]black female pirates[/a] in a genre full of chainmail bikinis. But I think GoT is aiming at something a bit different, something that of necessity ties it (a little bit) more closely to historical reality. I may be attaching a bit too much importance to genre boundaries in all of this though.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think GoT is really a critique of actual feudalism, but it portrays the medieval era with a fair degree of honesty &#8211; which counts for quite a lot I think (but maybe all of this is special pleading). I guess it could be considered a critique of standard genre fantasy, Sansa&#8217;s plot line involves the systematic destruction of her romantic ideas of chivalry. But yes it still does play on the romance of fluttering house standards and brave knights even as it displays a level of mercilessness about showing us what underpins such a system.</p>
<p>True, if GoT were set in the 1990s it would have to be set in Mogadishu or Myanmar or somewhere, which I agree wouldn&#8217;t have the same appeal. Knights and castles increase the distance from the backstabbings, battles and brutalisations. But then again everyone loves The Wire&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Manning Trial, Truth-Telling, and The Precariousness of Democractic Society by sophia</title>
		<link>http://thedisorderofthings.com/2013/06/12/the-manning-trial-truth-telling-and-precariousness-of-democractic-soceiety/#comment-5646</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sophia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 19:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedisorderofthings.com/?p=7585#comment-5646</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Joe - thanks for your reply. It&#039;s stimulating, and somewhat mind boggling, to think about &#039;truth&#039; in this way, and relevant for both political and academic work. As a &#039;materialist&#039; I firmly do not believe that all truth is relative, but nevertheless, as the Manning trial (and other whistleblower events) shows, what can be understood as true depends so much on the extent of our knowledge - in this case of straightforward, empirical facts. So to go back on my initial position on the question around the criminalising of truth, perhaps an answer is that actually the US government is sanctioning some true statements - those that contradict the truth of its own myth making. Especially with regards to the information that is coming out of the Snowden scandal, about the direct lies of senior officials in public speeches, and the apparent lies requested from large companies to hide the &#039;truth&#039;, it seems quite clear that some truths were simply prohibited, in the overall attempt to create a different version of &#039;reality&#039;. Somewhat akin to the erasing of former, fallen comrades from official USSR photographs - just preemptively.
As briefly mentioned, the Manning trial (and the related truth discussion) is very revelatory and of analytical power also with regards to humanitarianism/humanitarian intervention. While/Because the human rights violations of other governments increasingly merit the latter, those of the US have to be covered up and hidden to the extreme, which perhaps gives some insight into the extent of post-colonial governance that humanitarianism is providing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Joe &#8211; thanks for your reply. It&#8217;s stimulating, and somewhat mind boggling, to think about &#8216;truth&#8217; in this way, and relevant for both political and academic work. As a &#8216;materialist&#8217; I firmly do not believe that all truth is relative, but nevertheless, as the Manning trial (and other whistleblower events) shows, what can be understood as true depends so much on the extent of our knowledge &#8211; in this case of straightforward, empirical facts. So to go back on my initial position on the question around the criminalising of truth, perhaps an answer is that actually the US government is sanctioning some true statements &#8211; those that contradict the truth of its own myth making. Especially with regards to the information that is coming out of the Snowden scandal, about the direct lies of senior officials in public speeches, and the apparent lies requested from large companies to hide the &#8216;truth&#8217;, it seems quite clear that some truths were simply prohibited, in the overall attempt to create a different version of &#8216;reality&#8217;. Somewhat akin to the erasing of former, fallen comrades from official USSR photographs &#8211; just preemptively.<br />
As briefly mentioned, the Manning trial (and the related truth discussion) is very revelatory and of analytical power also with regards to humanitarianism/humanitarian intervention. While/Because the human rights violations of other governments increasingly merit the latter, those of the US have to be covered up and hidden to the extreme, which perhaps gives some insight into the extent of post-colonial governance that humanitarianism is providing.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Gender Trouble, Racial Salvation and the Tragedy of Political Community in &#8216;Game Of Thrones&#8217; (2012-2013) by Pablo K</title>
		<link>http://thedisorderofthings.com/2013/06/11/gender-trouble-racial-salvation-and-the-tragedy-of-political-community-in-game-of-thrones-2012-2013/#comment-5628</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pablo K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2013 22:00:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedisorderofthings.com/?p=5385#comment-5628</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I concede that this is the fantasy norm, but I deny that it is &lt;i&gt;intrinsic&lt;/i&gt; to the definition of &#039;fantasy&#039; itself. As Michael Moorcock argued in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&#039;Epic Pooh&#039;&lt;/a&gt;, this is but one form, and a form that became hegemonic in the wake of Tolkien. I don&#039;t think your view of fantasy fits the work of, say, Moorcock himself or someone like Ursula K. Le Guin, even though they do the fantastic in all the other relevant ways. Otherwise we just end up with a definition that the fantastic is reactionary/historical and sci-fi is radical/progressive, which is often true in practice but won&#039;t quite wash I don&#039;t think. 

Moreover, I don&#039;t quite accept the &#039;verisimilitude of feudalism&#039; thesis. Most fantasy, of course, has a feudal-&lt;i&gt;ish&lt;/i&gt; feel, but it seems that it usually means ale and knights and blacksmiths, rather than any kind of plot connection to the relevant social relations. The distinction between dragons as paraphernalia, but institutionalised homophobia as essential to the realism of the thing, doesn&#039;t work for me for that reason. A show that had wizards and peasants and corsets but with communities ruled be meritocratic collectives of gay lovers would still be &#039;fantasy&#039; and wouldn&#039;t, I don&#039;t think, be mistaken for &#039;sci-fi&#039; by the median viewer. It may disturb them, and unsettle their expectations, but the genre motifs woudn&#039;t be in doubt. 

In any case, it gives the lie to the &#039;critique&#039; function of such narratives, since there aren&#039;t any actual defenders of feudalism left to disprove (not even craven monarchists). No, it still seems to me that some kind of libidinal identification is what&#039;s going on, some enjoyment of the regressive that wouldn&#039;t be possible if the same characters and plot were set in the mid-1990s.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I concede that this is the fantasy norm, but I deny that it is <i>intrinsic</i> to the definition of &#8216;fantasy&#8217; itself. As Michael Moorcock argued in <a href="http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953" rel="nofollow">&#8216;Epic Pooh&#8217;</a>, this is but one form, and a form that became hegemonic in the wake of Tolkien. I don&#8217;t think your view of fantasy fits the work of, say, Moorcock himself or someone like Ursula K. Le Guin, even though they do the fantastic in all the other relevant ways. Otherwise we just end up with a definition that the fantastic is reactionary/historical and sci-fi is radical/progressive, which is often true in practice but won&#8217;t quite wash I don&#8217;t think. </p>
<p>Moreover, I don&#8217;t quite accept the &#8216;verisimilitude of feudalism&#8217; thesis. Most fantasy, of course, has a feudal-<i>ish</i> feel, but it seems that it usually means ale and knights and blacksmiths, rather than any kind of plot connection to the relevant social relations. The distinction between dragons as paraphernalia, but institutionalised homophobia as essential to the realism of the thing, doesn&#8217;t work for me for that reason. A show that had wizards and peasants and corsets but with communities ruled be meritocratic collectives of gay lovers would still be &#8216;fantasy&#8217; and wouldn&#8217;t, I don&#8217;t think, be mistaken for &#8216;sci-fi&#8217; by the median viewer. It may disturb them, and unsettle their expectations, but the genre motifs woudn&#8217;t be in doubt. </p>
<p>In any case, it gives the lie to the &#8216;critique&#8217; function of such narratives, since there aren&#8217;t any actual defenders of feudalism left to disprove (not even craven monarchists). No, it still seems to me that some kind of libidinal identification is what&#8217;s going on, some enjoyment of the regressive that wouldn&#8217;t be possible if the same characters and plot were set in the mid-1990s.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Manning Trial, Truth-Telling, and The Precariousness of Democractic Society by Joe</title>
		<link>http://thedisorderofthings.com/2013/06/12/the-manning-trial-truth-telling-and-precariousness-of-democractic-soceiety/#comment-5625</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2013 10:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedisorderofthings.com/?p=7585#comment-5625</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Sophie - thanks for the really insightful comment, which draws in things I wished I could bring up but didn&#039;t have time/remit to do so.

I didn&#039;t spell it out very well here - in part because it&#039;s something I&#039;ve just started thinking about - but I&#039;d want to argue that a right to truth is a right to exert democratic control over the knowledge-power relationships of individuals and government institutions. One point of contention is that I do think the US government is criminalising truth - not in the sense of criminalising a particular true statement but criminalising the processes by which particular truths are produced. The example of truth obtained in criminal investigations inappropriately is a case in point - who do such limitations serve? It seems at the moment in the US it is moving towards protecting the right of the government to possess and use information/truth as it sees fit and limiting the access of citizens and rolling back existing protections.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Sophie &#8211; thanks for the really insightful comment, which draws in things I wished I could bring up but didn&#8217;t have time/remit to do so.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t spell it out very well here &#8211; in part because it&#8217;s something I&#8217;ve just started thinking about &#8211; but I&#8217;d want to argue that a right to truth is a right to exert democratic control over the knowledge-power relationships of individuals and government institutions. One point of contention is that I do think the US government is criminalising truth &#8211; not in the sense of criminalising a particular true statement but criminalising the processes by which particular truths are produced. The example of truth obtained in criminal investigations inappropriately is a case in point &#8211; who do such limitations serve? It seems at the moment in the US it is moving towards protecting the right of the government to possess and use information/truth as it sees fit and limiting the access of citizens and rolling back existing protections.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Manning Trial, Truth-Telling, and The Precariousness of Democractic Society by Sophia</title>
		<link>http://thedisorderofthings.com/2013/06/12/the-manning-trial-truth-telling-and-precariousness-of-democractic-soceiety/#comment-5620</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sophia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedisorderofthings.com/?p=7585#comment-5620</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very important move to draw attention to the trial and its implications, which are by far not being discussed enough in public. I agree with you and think that the political/political theory implications of the trial are perhaps even more complex, as it is revealing a public disagreement about the morality/rightfulness of the law, thus drawing attention to the myth of representative democracy/unity of national will upon which state sovereignty, and its embodiment in the law, rests. As you point out, the Manning trial raises all kinds of questions: about the relationship between the individual and the government in the US – and the relationship to the state of both respectively, but also the racial/post-colonial hierarchies acted out in the US war on Iraq, where Iraqi lives are valued so much less than American ones. It also touches on the farcical ironies of the politics of human rights, in which a superpower mobilises them to justify a war in which it uses in-human violence, only to then violate the rights of someone who exposes this violence. Protestors against the trial are – mostly intuitively  - picking up on all these galvanising dimensions; protecting the right of an individual to reveal immoral and criminal behaviour of the government is only, sort of, the lens through which all these super-important political questions are focused. 

So I’d argue that it’s not really (or just) the right to truth that is at stake, rather all the implications that are embedded in the knowledge-power relationship of individuals and government: who is allowed to know the truth about whom? The US government after all is not really criminalising the truth, but rather the act of inversing the knowledge-power structure between individual and government that it favorises. (An interesting reversal of this by the way is the disallowing of evidence that police obtained in an illegal manner – but too much of an excursion here). The PRISM programme shows just how far the US government is willing to use the state to its advantage in a quest to veil its own actions in secrecy while obtaining as much ‘truth’ about the lives of citizens. Very awful developments all around.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very important move to draw attention to the trial and its implications, which are by far not being discussed enough in public. I agree with you and think that the political/political theory implications of the trial are perhaps even more complex, as it is revealing a public disagreement about the morality/rightfulness of the law, thus drawing attention to the myth of representative democracy/unity of national will upon which state sovereignty, and its embodiment in the law, rests. As you point out, the Manning trial raises all kinds of questions: about the relationship between the individual and the government in the US – and the relationship to the state of both respectively, but also the racial/post-colonial hierarchies acted out in the US war on Iraq, where Iraqi lives are valued so much less than American ones. It also touches on the farcical ironies of the politics of human rights, in which a superpower mobilises them to justify a war in which it uses in-human violence, only to then violate the rights of someone who exposes this violence. Protestors against the trial are – mostly intuitively  &#8211; picking up on all these galvanising dimensions; protecting the right of an individual to reveal immoral and criminal behaviour of the government is only, sort of, the lens through which all these super-important political questions are focused. </p>
<p>So I’d argue that it’s not really (or just) the right to truth that is at stake, rather all the implications that are embedded in the knowledge-power relationship of individuals and government: who is allowed to know the truth about whom? The US government after all is not really criminalising the truth, but rather the act of inversing the knowledge-power structure between individual and government that it favorises. (An interesting reversal of this by the way is the disallowing of evidence that police obtained in an illegal manner – but too much of an excursion here). The PRISM programme shows just how far the US government is willing to use the state to its advantage in a quest to veil its own actions in secrecy while obtaining as much ‘truth’ about the lives of citizens. Very awful developments all around.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Work and the Politics of Refusal by seymourblogger</title>
		<link>http://thedisorderofthings.com/2013/06/13/work-and-the-politics-of-refusal/#comment-5618</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[seymourblogger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2013 05:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedisorderofthings.com/?p=7544#comment-5618</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think each person has to define what they mean by work/play. It is really different for different people. Being with children is play for me in a context where meals, cleaning etc are taken care of. As in a free school. Unless meal prep is a part of what you do together.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think each person has to define what they mean by work/play. It is really different for different people. Being with children is play for me in a context where meals, cleaning etc are taken care of. As in a free school. Unless meal prep is a part of what you do together.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Gender Trouble, Racial Salvation and the Tragedy of Political Community in &#8216;Game Of Thrones&#8217; (2012-2013) by David Grondin</title>
		<link>http://thedisorderofthings.com/2013/06/11/gender-trouble-racial-salvation-and-the-tragedy-of-political-community-in-game-of-thrones-2012-2013/#comment-5615</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Grondin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 16:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedisorderofthings.com/?p=5385#comment-5615</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Reblogged this on &lt;a href=&quot;http://militainment.org/2013/06/14/gender-trouble-racial-salvation-and-the-tragedy-of-political-community-in-game-of-thrones-2012-2013/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Observing US Security, Politics, Geography, and Pop Culture&lt;/a&gt; and commented: 
Insightful thoughts on Game of Thrones from Paul Kirby here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reblogged this on <a href="http://militainment.org/2013/06/14/gender-trouble-racial-salvation-and-the-tragedy-of-political-community-in-game-of-thrones-2012-2013/" rel="nofollow">Observing US Security, Politics, Geography, and Pop Culture</a> and commented:<br />
Insightful thoughts on Game of Thrones from Paul Kirby here.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Ten Reasons Not To Write Your Master&#8217;s Dissertation on Sexual Violence in War by On the delicate problems involved with studying sexual violence in wartime &#124; Observing US Security, Politics, Geography, and Pop Culture</title>
		<link>http://thedisorderofthings.com/2013/06/04/ten-reasons-not-to-write-your-masters-dissertation-on-sexual-violence-in-war/#comment-5614</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[On the delicate problems involved with studying sexual violence in wartime &#124; Observing US Security, Politics, Geography, and Pop Culture]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 15:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedisorderofthings.com/?p=7475#comment-5614</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] Reblogged The Disorder of Things. An interesting and provocative invitation by Marsha Henry and an insightful comments section. Food for thought for teachers and students! [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Reblogged The Disorder of Things. An interesting and provocative invitation by Marsha Henry and an insightful comments section. Food for thought for teachers and students! [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Gender Trouble, Racial Salvation and the Tragedy of Political Community in &#8216;Game Of Thrones&#8217; (2012-2013) by ndm lees</title>
		<link>http://thedisorderofthings.com/2013/06/11/gender-trouble-racial-salvation-and-the-tragedy-of-political-community-in-game-of-thrones-2012-2013/#comment-5612</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ndm lees]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 12:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedisorderofthings.com/?p=5385#comment-5612</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lots to agree with, especially the para on lordship and rank in the GoT series. Daeneyris as a white feminist imperialist - certainly, but wait to see where this plot goes. On the Westerosi Seven Pointed Star religion, there is nothing so far in the TV series to suggest that the religion is anything more than the ideology of a feudal, patriarchal society. Contrast with the religion of R&#039;hllor the red god, whose followers seem to wield mystical powers and which thus might be &#039;real&#039; (the actual doctrine is rather vague, but seems ruthless yet egalitarian). Melisandre and Brien are both well cast, but the script lets them down - M for the reasons you give and B by turning her into a bit of a muttonhead (there&#039;s some hope for future seasons though).

But I disagree with the thrust of what you are saying when you write: &#039;there can be no gay marriage in alternative universes: only shape-shifters and dragons and green fire and black magic and wargs and vengeful wraiths&#039;. No, there can&#039;t: standard fantasy offers a putatively realistic setting based on a period in history, onto which totally fantastic paraphernalia are layered. Standard fantasy is the opposite of speculative fiction, which feature social arrangements very different from those which have actually existed, the existence of which is explained in part through technological artifacts/events that are realistic or at least rationalised (Brave New World, Handmaid&#039;s Tale etc). Now a lot of standard fantasy is bad, presenting a romanticised caricature of medieval Europe full of noble knights, jolly lords and grateful peasants (Charlie Stross has &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/10/the-hard-edge-of-empire.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;criticised steampunk&lt;/a&gt; along similar lines). But part of why GoT has been a success is its&lt;a href=&quot;http://chaosandgovernance.wordpress.com/2013/03/25/tom-holland-on-a-game-of-thrones/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;level of verisimilitude&lt;/a&gt; and honesty about the realities of a feudal/dynastic society. 

Maintaining that verisimilitude rules out gay marriage, but it demands that gay people are shown to exist within the Seven Kingdoms. The danger is buying a society&#039;s ideology in the process of depicting it, and here GoT is pretty good if not perfect. There are obviously big limitations intrinsic to the conventional fantasy genre, but they come with the territory. Speculative and science-fiction are better vehicles for exploring alternative social arrangements.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lots to agree with, especially the para on lordship and rank in the GoT series. Daeneyris as a white feminist imperialist &#8211; certainly, but wait to see where this plot goes. On the Westerosi Seven Pointed Star religion, there is nothing so far in the TV series to suggest that the religion is anything more than the ideology of a feudal, patriarchal society. Contrast with the religion of R&#8217;hllor the red god, whose followers seem to wield mystical powers and which thus might be &#8216;real&#8217; (the actual doctrine is rather vague, but seems ruthless yet egalitarian). Melisandre and Brien are both well cast, but the script lets them down &#8211; M for the reasons you give and B by turning her into a bit of a muttonhead (there&#8217;s some hope for future seasons though).</p>
<p>But I disagree with the thrust of what you are saying when you write: &#8216;there can be no gay marriage in alternative universes: only shape-shifters and dragons and green fire and black magic and wargs and vengeful wraiths&#8217;. No, there can&#8217;t: standard fantasy offers a putatively realistic setting based on a period in history, onto which totally fantastic paraphernalia are layered. Standard fantasy is the opposite of speculative fiction, which feature social arrangements very different from those which have actually existed, the existence of which is explained in part through technological artifacts/events that are realistic or at least rationalised (Brave New World, Handmaid&#8217;s Tale etc). Now a lot of standard fantasy is bad, presenting a romanticised caricature of medieval Europe full of noble knights, jolly lords and grateful peasants (Charlie Stross has <a href="http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/10/the-hard-edge-of-empire.html" rel="nofollow">criticised steampunk</a> along similar lines). But part of why GoT has been a success is its<a href="http://chaosandgovernance.wordpress.com/2013/03/25/tom-holland-on-a-game-of-thrones/" rel="nofollow">level of verisimilitude</a> and honesty about the realities of a feudal/dynastic society. </p>
<p>Maintaining that verisimilitude rules out gay marriage, but it demands that gay people are shown to exist within the Seven Kingdoms. The danger is buying a society&#8217;s ideology in the process of depicting it, and here GoT is pretty good if not perfect. There are obviously big limitations intrinsic to the conventional fantasy genre, but they come with the territory. Speculative and science-fiction are better vehicles for exploring alternative social arrangements.</p>
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